Crossdressers-Forum.com

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I want to talk about something that we have discussed here before and certainly will in the future. I have discussed it on other forums and have exchanged thoughts with everyone from the occasional closeted crossdresser to 18 year post op transsexual women. And the question is : Do we owe the transgender movement anything and if so, what?

Many people, even those who are not transgendered, feel that like the gay community we need to band together to give ourselves a political voice that can be heard by lawmakers and policy makers. As a political movement our image becomes important. Many religious groups, Christianity, Judaism, and to a lesser degree Islam and many others, claim that dressing as the opposite sex is a sin and morally wrong. It is a sexual perversion and is a behavior that people choose to do. Because of this many feel our image as a whole is important and everyone needs to follow at least a basic code of conduct. One such rule in the unwritten rules of transgender presentation is to dress age appropriate and not slutty.

But this is just one point of view. Others believe their right to express themselves is not controlled by the struggle to be accepted. Somewhat of an existential point of view, that everyone has a right to present any way they feel like. In fact from polling I have done here and other places there are a distinct percentage of people who crossdress only for the sexual thrill. For many of these people dressing slutty is exactly the point. So if we have rules banning how they dress, while trying to gain acceptance for ourselves, in my opinion we are doing exactly what we are fighting. Which is to say there is a set of moral rules that guide how one dresses, that everyone needs to abide by and we will tell you what that is.

Because if we take the stand that those who dress just for sexual pleasure are not a part of our group of transgender, we admit there is a line to be drawn. And if there is a line to be drawn, what makes our line better than those who say we should not do it at all? So in my opinion if we say that any group of transgendered people can not dress the way they choose, we are making an argument that we should not allowed to either, if the majority of people say we shouldn't.

There are also many crossdressers and transsexuals that are closeted and intend to stay that way. For that reason they really do not care about the transgendered movement and as such may either support or not support social limits on what one can wear. Some feeling that if they can't, no one else should and those who just don't care because it does not affect them.

From my own point of view, like many transsexuals who are out and not entirely passable, I want to be left alone to dress as I please. I am not a transsexual except by societies label. To me I am a woman and as a woman I can dress however I please. Just as GG's do in the real world. Some dress nice, some dress sloppy, some dress slutty, some dress tomboyish, and some have given up entirely and surrendered to wearing sweats and other stretch/baggy clothes. In my view it's not for anyone to say.

While I don't claim to speak for the entire transsexual community, I know a great many do not feel like transsexuals and don't want to be recognized as transsexuals. As such they certainly don't want to represent the transsexual community. Especially after transition they don't want to carry the torch for a cause they never asked for to begin with. They want to live their lives as women or men depending on the starting point.

I would to a large degree consider myself to be in that group. I don't really care what the movement thinks I should or should not be doing. It's not that I don't care if we have civil rights or not. It's that I don't feel appeasing anyone is the way to do it. I believe if a girl wants to dress slutty, it's her own business regardless of whether or not she is a natal female or a transitioned female. In the 70's I watched the transition from girls not being allowed to wear jeans and in some places pants, to being able to wear what they want. I won't settle for less.

I guess the way I feel is that I don't owe anyone anything. I am just here to live my life. I don't really care if anyone approves or not. From my perspective no one has the right to tell anyone what to do. If I offend anyone it's really too bad. I could easily be offended by anything or anyone that is not like me, but I choose not to.

That doesn't mean I don't respect those who do hold the torch for the movement. I do respect them. If that is what makes them feel happy and fulfilled I am glad, but I don't feel indebted to them. And I certainly don't feel as if I am bound by their unwritten rules any more than those who would not want us to dress at all.

Basically I am a "live and let live" kind of person. I can accept everyone, no matter how different their beliefs might be. Since, well? I don't have to believe it myself. What do I care what someone else believes as long as they don't expect me to live by it.

I only speak for myself and I welcome other views that differ from my own. Which is of course the reason I started this thread.

Love always,
Elizabeth
_________________
Most people see gifts as an investment

[DonnaT]

[Anne]

I agree 200% Elizabeth. Dress and let dress.

I have struggled some in trying to quantify what we owe the LGBT movement for including CDs. It is helping when some of the laws are rewritten when they include gender expression clauses. But many, many in the LGBT mainstream really do not have CD issues on their radar. Gay marriage is their biggest target and hate crimes are a big one too.

Some want to get into political action. I would guess that most CDs would not given their situation.

I'm glad you've brought this up and again, I agree with all you say.

Anne

[Deidre Taylor]

Do we owe anythig to the transgender community? No. I give back as do many because we want not because we have to. I have been blessed with a semi-accepting family, varying degrees of acceptance, and financial security. I know a lot of my sistersare not as lessed soI try to give back. Is it right for everyone? No but it is for me

[Anita]

I like your post, Elizabeth, and I feel that it was carefully thought out each step of the way.

I may have time to write more on this topic. For now, I'm glad that I can be a facilitator for the support group. That is something I would have never imagined doing, and it has been the best way to help other people along the way.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I feel a lot like Deidre, what I give back I give willingly. Not because I feel I owe anyone, but because I feel fortunate. One of the great things about coming here has been the attitude of "take what you can use and leave the rest".

There are a lot of ideas and views expressed here and not all ideas work for everyone. So I try to talk about what has worked or not worked for me in hopes that it might help someone move their life forward. I have always felt that I have received far more than I could ever return, so feeling an obligation would just leave me feeling empty. I like that I can come here and benefit from the wisdom of my sisters and not owe anyone anything.

No one is offended if I don't take their advice and I don't get offended if someone doesn't take my advice. It's a sharing of information on the most honest level. Yes, I like giving back when I can, but there are also times when I need to be selfish and take care of myself.

I guess what I am trying to say is what Deidre already said. Just because I don't feel I owe anyone does not preclude me from wanting to give back. And like Anita and Deidre, I find I enjoy giving back. I know how painful this gift can be and if I can help reduce the pain anyone is experiencing, that is very uplifting to me.

Love always,
Elizabeth
_________________
Most people see gifts as an investment

[Anita]

Elizabeth wrote:

[Elizabeth]

Hi Anita,

[Carolynn]

Elizabeth, you may actually be asking a different question as I reread your post, but you have raised an interesting point for discussion, one I often pause to consider when I read about some of the legal battles affecting integration of all transgender into society at large.

I am not entirely comfortable with the larger “T” of the LGBT. As we seem to rarely be understood by the LGB, I usually consider it as the LGB&T, with the T being an afterthought used to swell the numbers for political pressures if not the coffers of the organizations that agitate for our civil rights. A long time friend who is gay and is an activist (to a degree) posed this question to me:

“If you are not willing to “bleed in the streets” for human rights you are otherwise denied by bigots who would consider you insane or perverts, why should you benefit from the strife and blood of those that do? Put up or shut up.”

So, that is a bit of a question to toss into the discussion. Should any of us who do not face up to societal and religious disapproval by being open about ourselves, expect to share in the gains made by the several legal associations, individuals, and even groups like the HRC who claim to speak for all of us (may they gag on their own spit)?

For example, people like Susan Stanton, who finally got hired again as a city manager after being fired by another city for transitioning; Christine Daniels who suicided rather than endure the disapproval by family and her sports reporting readership; Wendy Carlos who gained composer fame as Walter Carlos (a Clockwork Orange), who has since published little music but has created a new life for herself and published brilliant photobooks on solar eclipses and other subjects natural and astronomical; Dr. Marci Bowers who rebuilt her gynecological practice after transition, being open with all and bringing surgical aid to other TS like her and to women who were forcibly circumcised and rendered incapable of sexual pleasure by a cruel custom instituted by men; and many many others less well known.

Then the many who have been and are being murdered or driven to suicide by harassment and bullying, world wide, all the Gwen Arijullos of the world?

All these people have, in a manner of speaking, “bled in the streets” by being open to criticism and violence by bigoted, uncaring people, while the dead have literally bled in the streets, but all have had the effect of changing attitudes of many. None of these people were Jerry Springer types, but that is the way we would be viewed if they were not so forthcoming and willing to stand out front and say TG or TS are just normal people with similar wants and desires as their critics hold.

Yes, most of my examples are women with a transsexual medical history, but there are those who are CDs who have written books, how–to’s and biographies included. There are a very few who are crossdressers that are willing to let it all hang out, but most do not, with reason. The reason is often the backlash by the rest of society that just doesn’t or refuses to understand. Unlike TS who intend to live openly as who they are because they simply must, the usual CD has concerns that make being open dangerous to their economic (and their familys) well being, and they do not find it necessary to undergo such radical physical changes. Many on this forum do go out, and by quiet presentation represent an image to society at large that helps mold opinion to some degree.

But, I guess the point is, these all the people above are the pioneers (some of who have been around longer than others), though mostly unwilling, that may be making life a bit easier for the rest of us. If we are not willing to be vocal in our support, and expressing the attitude to others that we are not some strange people deserving of derision, but real people, should we be taking the gains those others make as a right we have earned?

I find myself wanting to just be allowed to live as me. I have never cared for confrontation, though I can at times be a total bitch when I am pressed in confrontation. Having been a putative male for years, and now female, I am fully aware of sensitive areas, physically, mentally and emotionally, and I can strike when I must and leave blood behind, figuratively speaking. But, when my last surgery is finished in a few months, I would like nothing more than to disappear in the woodwork of society and simply live my life for however much longer I may have. Yet I feel a bit guilty, that I have not “stepped up to the plate” (a metaphor for those who like baseball) more for all our human rights, and opposed the bigoted, gibbering , self righteous bastards and bitches who would cast us out of society.

What I have read so far seems to indicate most of you are comfortable with doing nothing, hiding in your closet, and yet taking advantage of the gains, limited though they may be, fought for by others? Things like:

Being able to walk out to clubs dressed as you want, go shopping and be treated well by many shopkeepers, clerks and waitstaff in eateries; none of these things would have been available to you in 1960-70s.

Dirty little ghettos were all that were available then, alongside gay bars and topless clubs in the red light districts. Subject to arrest at the whim of a vice cop whether you were doing anything illegal or not, and exposed for the world to see in the morning news. That is more rare now, though there are some places (like Tennessee) where it is business as usual. But the tolerance in many places is part of the changes that others obtained for us.

Perhaps you do not identify with a TG movement, but do you identify with fighting for human rights in your own neighborhood?
_________________
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born

[Kimberly Kael]

This is definitely a complicated issue, and it is one I've given a lot of thought to from time to time. Not that I've come to any grand conclusions, mind you, but it definitely bears thinking about.

Do I blame anyone for laying low and staying out of the political side of things? Goodness, no. I certainly did so for a very long time and I understand that there's a non-trivial amount of risk in sticking your neck out. The amount of risk and the amount of potential gain are going to vary from person to person, so why should I expect everyone to come to the same conclusion when evaluating the risk/reward balance? They can't and they won't.

On the other side, there is clearly value in being visible as a community. If everyone knew how many CD/TG/TSers there are and who they were, there would be a significant shift in societal perceptions about us. I don't think anyone should feel pressured to conform to a standard. After all, if we're going to conform to some arbitrary standard why not just conform to the status quo? What's important, instead, is that we have realistic expectations about what impact we hope to have. If, after thousands of years of societal evolution, the way a woman dresses affects her employment prospects then it's absurd to think that it won't be true for us as well. The legal right to dress as you please doesn't mean it won't affect another person's perception of you.

I guess what I would ask is that people be realistic about the consequences of their action or inaction, and that they reevaluate from time to time as they learn or as society learns. More has changed in the past twenty years than I ever dared hope for, and the increasing acceptance seems to be sustainable. Fingers crossed!
_________________
~ Kimberly

“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard

[Elizabeth]

[Anita]

I chose to focus on the differences between us, and it got me off-topic a bit.
We in the gender movement have a strange dichotomy. We often stand out more than any other LGB category in the beginning of our journey--that is, if we're "out" crossdressers, or newly transitioned, or just starting hormones. If we're gender-queer, we continue to stand out more than others might.

But if we successfully transition, we have the ability to stand out less than any other category of LGB. Unlike gay and lesbian couples, we can be coupled with a person of the opposite gender to us, and we appear to be a conventional couple. So it's tempting to just want to live our new lives.

Carolynn wrote:

[Sylvia H]

I dont get back here very often, but check occasionally to see what is going on.
I have to concur with Elizabeth on her observations.
This forum started out for me as a place that seemed to be step in the right direction in trying to get a handle on an identity problem I didn’t know I had. This was a serious personal shakeup at the time and certainly learned a lot for which I am eternally grateful. But I soon discovered there were many if not most for whom “gender” took a different meaning and priorities associated with it.
There were times I felt I had nothing significantly in common with the TG community with so much variation in perspectives. That’s when the light came on and realized that I needed to fix me. Not just be a part of a community just for the sake of a community. A huge part of my distorted view that needed fixed was that I needed to stand alone. Community is ok, but without self-definition one just becomes a part of something one really doesn’t understand, accepts beliefs just because everyone else around does, and at worst becomes dependent on ideology, religion, etc where ones thinking is done for them. In short a follower because others fill in the gaps we haven’t learned to fill ourselves.
I am happy to support a wider “community” as long as it actually promotes something worthwhile of real tangible value to someone who is struggling. I cannot buy into blanket political processes due to the group mentality that eventually corrupts such things. So my support is personal. I give because there is need and I want to.
Most if not all of the people cited as examples TG martyrs or what have you did not do so with that in mind. Those people are examples precisely because they didn’t do it for a high and mighty group cause. History is full of people that had no idea what their actions would produce downstream. The point being one does not have to be political or organized to make significant contributions to society. Just do the right or even wrong thing and it will show up later somehow some way later on.
So I guess that makes me one of those selfish ones that believes just being genuine is enough. A sort of trickle down theory of a different sort.

Sorry to be so long winded. Hope you can make some sense out of all of it.

Xox
Sylvia

[DanteCarrie (FTM)]

hmmm cool thread.
I don't think i owe the transgendered movement anything.

Mainly because I don't believe I'm transgendered and its a stupid umbrella term really. Also I have no dislike of my sex or gender much.

I agree with elizabeth i wouldn't want to be called transexual.

I think yeah alot of people are in the trans umbrella if they are transexual, transegendered, genderqueer, bigendered or whatever but I don't necessarily think CDs always fall into that.

Some just like to wear certain clothes that don't really have a gender assigned to them humans decided they should.

I think T can be seen as a afterthought to the LGB thing. But honestly even though I'm techincally a CD cas i wear men's clothes I identify far more with the LGB.
i wish T was not an afterthought though but often i think trans people retreat from LGB things from fear of discrimination.
I'm just a bisexual who likes to dress butch at times which includes wearing some men's clothes and occasionally i like to fantisise I'm a guy but then again i also fantisise I'm a magical powerful being on another planet. I'm happy or at least content and ok with my female sex. Its a bit meh but its fine.
I am not out as a CD people just see me as a bi who is a bit dyky at times and if thats what i appear as then its accurate and Im ok with that description.

I think all people deserve rights to live the way they want as long as they don't force it on others and thats why LGBT should stay LGBT and help each other. But no i don't think everyone should have to protest in the streets.
Gosh I'm president of an lgbt society and even i find that a bit boring. thank god for those who do it but frankly its a tad whingy and sometimes its cold and Im just too tired and would rather stay at home and eat and the end of the day
so no one owes anymovment anything. we can have the rights earned by it but really no one should of had to fight we should already have had them so yes we are entilled to them and don't owe anybody anything.

I agree with the post that at times T people have it bad if you can't pas it is very visible yet if you have done so very invisible which can be just as bad. at least if its out in the open you know what to expect rather than being regected later when you are found out (examples of transexuals who appear 100% what they want to be but partners can't handle that they used to be the other.
In a way i think Lesbians and gays have it harder than trans. i disagree that you necessarily have it harder. a heterosexual CD who is not transitioning is often more acceptable than homosexuality because hes just wearing clothes not banging a same sex partner. but then an actual trnasexual may have it harder as some can swallow same sex love but trying to become something other than what you were born as is very looked down on by some.
frankly i think bisexual have it harder than gays. shocking that i should think that i know LOL. but i do. I've never been big on overly defending my own kind. i don't owe bisexuals much and actually most and crap do alot of complaining and never come to the events we put on and alot are promiscuous or attention getting so screw them. but yeah i think bis have it harder. either way they are invisible as what they are depending on owe they date and are discriminated for homosexual lust and the fact that they are pure homos so they get way more flac from different sides than gays.
But i think transexuals especially transgenders whotake hormones but don't want the final opperation and transvestites have it worse.
but oh well. there is probably a black, jewish, bisexual, pre (permanently) transexual out there somewhere who really into gothism and BDSM and lets all be thankful we aren't them cas wow they really do have it way way worse.
i think everyone deserves rights and LGB should support T more but really they seem to hide from us even when we try the bis do to. but we owe no body anything. i mean we are all human and surviving and living your own life is the main thing. fixing your dishwasher is more important than a pride rally hundreds of others are already at. but no i don't think i owe the T movement anything i don't even belong to it. I'm just a bisexual crossdresser. nothing more

[Ms. Darla]

Much is written here about who and what is enough for this movement we hope to achieve and gain some acceptance from Joe Public. Are you active enough in any rally, dress enough, or speak out enough. Have you earned your Red Badge of Courage? You must be willing to bleed in the streets? Pretty bold statement considering what is to be gained or lost from it.

Consider my profession and I have bled in the streets for what I believe in. This has been in to real wars and I don't believe that everyone should walk a mile in my boots to enjoy all the freedom we have in our country.

Everyone does there part every day to their ability. No bloody revolution here just a strong steady chipping away at the what the public considers normal and what you consider normal. Will we ever see eye to eye? Not completely because they don't have our prospective and we don't have theirs. Nor do we have consensus within our own on what is enough or too little.

Our country was founded on individuality and it will take a while for our individuality to become acceptable to most people and never as much as the most right or left of our "group".
_________________
Trying to get through life without breaking a heal.